Team [ PnP ] - Australian Gaming Clan

[ News Comments ]

Fraghunting- the death of a team game

18-Jun-2004 17:53:13

Over the past few months it seems that many defenders seem to care more about the number of frags they get than the effect they have on containing attackers. This is something that has steadily become a problem in the last few years. It is having an effect on the number of people who want to defend and limiting people’s enjoyment of the game. Fraghunting happens on both attack and defense but I will concentrate on the defense side because it seems to happen more frequently on defense.

“In TeamFortress these stats do not carry any real weight, stats are biased against offense and do not really indicate "how good a player is”.

This quote is from the TF Done Easy site, which was run by Cannibal. Whenever Cann did stats this line would always be at the top. I think this statement has been forgotten and can partially explain why we fraghunting is spreading.

I know it really annoys a lot of defenders who rightfully care about preventing caps rather than maximising their frag count. I’ve talked to a few people who even refuse to defend with particular fraghunters because defending with them is just too frustrating.

There is a clear distinction between fragstealing and fraghunting as pointed out to me by the creator of TF terms such as “stagnation”.

Fragstealing vs Fraghunting
Fragstealing occurs where a defender may get the attacker down to low health and then another defender comes in with a rocket or shotty to kill the person. Many of the best defenders do this, but the majority do it to quickly kill the attacker and help out their teammate. I see a lot of people crying about this in regards to Zut and Grey, when in reality it is a way of quickly killing the enemy and protecting team mates. The effect of this is that the attacker is killed half a second quicker and often means the attacker can’t get a gren out in time to kill the defender.

Fraghunting on the other hand is about maximising your own frags and often leads to teamkills, damaging your own defence and more caps for the other team. Even if the fraghunter does not kill his teammates, he often takes off all their health and armour and makes them easy bait for attackers. Fraghunters generally show little respect for teammates and will do anything to see another frag appear in their stats at the end of the game.

Observations of Fraghunting
You might still fail to see the distinction between these two types of things so I’ll give you some examples of classic fraghunting behaviour.

1. Ignoring the flag runner or more lethal attackers so the fraghunter can get an easy kill. An example of this is where a defender ignores a scout with the flag because they have their attention on someone else who is close to dying. This is one of the funniest things I’ve seen when attacking because it means the scout can escape quickly whilst his dead teammate laughs at the stupidity of the defence.

2. A fraghunter gladly killing four teammates for the sake of one frag. I heard people whinge about this on h4rdcore but didn’t realise how annoying it was until I experienced it first hand when defending in a pug. Fraghunters don’t care or deny the effect this action has on their team. Again it’s pretty funny to just waltz into the lobby in h4rdcore and steal the enemy flag after a fraghunter has killed everyone one of his teammates.

3. Defenders playing totally different positions to get frags and opening holes for attackers. The classic example of this is when defending attacking h4rdcore and you see the 2 soldier defenders fighting it out for the frag of the half dead guy at one of the lifts. The funny bit is what follows, when three attackers come down the opposite lift and own both lift defenders.

4. People typing showfrags or stopping to check stats during important games. I was spectating an OZTF game the other day and saw a defender of the team losing type “showfrags” to check out their frags. To me this means the defender isn’t really thinking about the game, and that can’t be good for the team!

Why Do People Fraghunt?
I think the reason for fraghunting is because everyone reads stats after the game and are under the impression others will think they “own” if they top the frags. From an attacking point of view, often the best defenders are the ones who do something smart and end up with not many frags because of their actions e.g. locking down an entry and forcing people to go other ways.

I’ve seen so many occasions of people crying after a game about someone defending style. Then the fraghunters excuse is “er look at the stats see I owned”. This excuse has no validity if you killed and injured teammates non-stop for 35 minutes!

The stupid thing is whilst this excuse is often used, it seems that most people seem to believe it. People need to start to understand that a good defender isn’t someone who kills the most enemies but screws their whole team in doing it.

Why is Fraghunting Suddenly Such a Problem?
There have always been those who care more about frags than teamplay but it’s getting beyond a joke. So why is this all of a sudden a problem?

- OZTF (the mod) and fuhquake now have stats functions built in that allow people to check their stats during games. Whilst I think these are good features it seems that availability of stats could be something that is fuelling fraghunting behaviour.

- Perception that stats = best player. This perception is stronger now that it ever has been. You see people after games saying “phwoar you got 100 frags” whereas you don’t see these people saying “phwoar you locked down that position all game”.

Is Fraghunting Going To End?
I can’t really see any solution to this ending unless people start to become more aware of how annoying fraghunting is for everyone else. The fact that well known defenders refuse to defend with some fraghunting defenders shows how bad it has become.

I think the only way to at least reduce this in games is to bring awareness to how bad fraghunting is for teammates. If getting rid of fraghunting was a function of the number of words in a post then fraghunting would stop immediately! Unfortunately this isn’t the case, so I have no idea if anything can be done about it.

Comments and thoughts
As you can see the new PnP page has comments thanks to Zoom. As I attack most games I don’t know as much about fraghunting as many of you seasoned defenders. So, I’d like to hear your comments and in particular, highlight who you think are the worst three offenders. You never know, if people are shamed they may change their ways!

News Comments
tones @ 2004-06-18 17:44:01 toules sux!
[PnP]Sold @ 2004-06-18 17:44:14 jin jin jin nice post t, interesting points
player @ 2004-06-18 17:47:14 grey is fragstealkng
unnamed @ 2004-06-18 17:50:17 alot of people 'fragsteal' and dont watch their own positions i think that unless in a desperate situation/location defenders should leave their teammates to stop the person unless they call for help alot of the time you get aswell as the attack
[PnP]Donaldo @ 2004-06-18 17:50:19 tornisgay
mks- @ 2004-06-18 17:57:03 ok i confess, i am a fraghunter. i can't help it, jin made me who i am, he is the inspiration of all fraghunters in the world.
fri @ 2004-06-18 18:03:46 toules toules toules u certainly missed an important point about fraghunting attackers, who usually go for easy kills even when the flag is right in front of them to steal. afterwards they go, phwoar look how many people i killed, with barely any touches to their name. it can be a good strategy when you try to clear a certain position for teammates to go through, what i'm talking about is those guys who would rather go for a meaningless kill than a cap. i just think you were very short sighted in your analysation of modern society's problem with fraghunting. p.s - was that a good enough stir ? hehe
unnamed @ 2004-06-18 18:10:17 if the flag is in front of someone, an attacker doesn't fraghunt........i dont think anyone chooses going for a kill over a touch if they are the only person around the only times you would see it if they were low healthed, going for the piper or waiting for someone faster/more health to take it
jin @ 2004-06-18 22:15:44 i dont fraghunt in clan games ok i do admit i am a major fraghunter in pugs(usually on attack so its not like i kill teammates neway) but i dont do it in clan games unless we're up by 100!(where i tend to defend) u know the worst thing tho DP ON MBASES opts for laying a detpack in their fr instead of getting the flag right in front of him when hes the only guy there DP U SUCK
cable @ 2004-06-18 22:48:09 u have too much time toules.
[PnP]Toules @ 2004-06-18 23:07:12 I'll do anything to avoid study :]
@ 2004-06-19 00:14:20 The search for individual recognition eventually burns out. I've been saving worlds for eternity. Thats why I'm Messiah. Although people call me mess. Small m and half the full word. Anyways, its not so important to keep changing the name these days so I'm sticking to Messiah. But I'm not telling you any of this because I want to be recognised or put in the spotlight. Tell me serious sidewinders, how do you bring back the friendship on the battlefield? Try doing nothing the next time you're playing. Watch your teammates. Learn their style. Work with them. Forget the frags. Who cares? My qw client doesn't even show me frags. That was a silly thing to add to the game.
sole @ 2004-06-19 09:14:52 I agree 100% with Don. Torn is gay.
Torn @ 2004-06-19 10:55:28 fuk u cunts have no life (don/sole). 'your gay'.. in the words of wolv OHNO!
[PnP]bliP @ 2004-06-19 11:38:24 You're
[PnP]bliP @ 2004-06-19 11:38:38 You're
[PnP]Messiah @ 2004-06-19 12:00:32 I can see a solution. Have you guys ever heard of the 100th monkey effect? If not check out this small story (http://www.lightshift.com/Inspiration/monkey.html). It's quite unbelievable. Its almost as unbelievable as the concept of shifting a hero dominated team game into a community supported fun game. This is only a digital reality though and I am the Messiah and I've pulled off bigger shit then this before. Stay tuned for another recording by the one and only.
Sepz @ 2004-06-19 12:57:42 Alright i'm going to actually post with what toules wanted. #1 - WM - Okay, well I dont think anyone will argue with me when i say that Tim has to be the worst piper .. er i mean fraghunter ever. I've seen him kill his entire defense and not care. He blames everyone else for his spam 'well you shouldn't have been resupplying' (if you're fr sold on mb). Ya Right. I played 2f5 with him he was lift i was spiral and he even then managed to spam me and get more kills... If gren2's were out of the game wm would quit tf. #2 Sin - He should take his gren2 bind and unbind. No, Seriously. On irc he said 'so what if i kill teammates i still got the nme'. But the problem is, he doesn't listen.. that's what frustrates me the most, it's the the fact that people can't do something, it's they wont listen or 'cbf'. For example, Sin defending TF2K stairs, i'm fighting enemy in cy sin is low resup, runs out, then duels the nme in cy.. dt gets overrun by the 3 in the water and 2 make it to fr with FULL HEALTH. All because sin wasnt even in the same room as where his pos was so it gave them free runs.. Oh and yes they got the flag down to inner yard and eventually capped (in oztf). #3 Marsh - He is very much like sin, usually defends like a rr style position and always always always tries to get the very best stats he can, whether that be killing 3teammies in the process he still gets it done. Do you notice the link between fraghunters and quake arrogance? - Sepz
dp @ 2004-06-19 13:15:56 dear jin some points: -as u pointed out its only a pug -i only do it if my teams winning -if u detpack their cp it means someone from def or att has to suicide, go eng, dodge spam, fix cp, then go back to what they were doing. -i figure if i can get to flag there will be someone close behind me to take flag - detting cp gives u full health/armour (maybe grens too), which helps u get out with the flag easier, specially if its in rr -the satisfaction of seeing enemy lose a cap in cp >>>>> 10 caps, let alone one -its only a pug yours, dp
dp @ 2004-06-19 13:23:03 oh and killing 1 teammate to kill 1 enemy is justified i reckon, the teammates probably low on health, he can get back faster than the attack, if hes near an enemy and not killing him then he sux and deserves to die. "Even if the fraghunter does not kill his teammates, he often takes off all their health and armour and makes them easy bait for attackers." thats more spam than fraghunting
jin @ 2004-06-19 13:49:26 i was only joking dp why write an essay for!
dp @ 2004-06-19 14:11:30 cos u said i suck IN CAPS :(
RamiereZ @ 2004-06-19 14:20:21 the other interesting this is when you get killed BY your teammates, when you HAVE the flag, just so they get the cap, has happened to me many times (esp when scout)...
ThuGz @ 2004-06-19 14:57:29 actually i really dont think that is an issue seein as then you can get straight back to attacking, caphunter!
[PnP]Marsh @ 2004-06-19 15:10:59 I'm hardly a frag hunter... Please show me a demo where I kill more then one of my team mates to frag an enemy. In pugs i'll gladly sacrifice a team mate if they are standing an inch away from the enemy while I have a grenade primed, why wait to see if they can kill them when you are confident you can finish it off yourself. And there's only one map where i choose to play an rr position and thats mbases. I just get a position assigned to me, how can it be my fault if i'm put ramp room...
@ 2004-06-19 18:16:43 I often taken kills for the team. Its good to be in there sometimes stirring them upclose while getting pounded by your teammate. I call them htk's. h for holy. They are tk's you graciously accept as being lessons from above. But a holy tk can only be recieved by an eleet member. if the more eleet player is up close and a newbie engages from afar that is considered a sinful interaction. You will be damned to hell in the mind of your friend. Probably killed two rounds. I try not to retaliate when I am tk'd. Infact, I try not to retaliate when anyone does anything I disagree with. I figure this... "If this guy has anger towards me as it stands and is killing me even though he is on my team, he obviously doesn't have a very high regard for me. Therefor by retaliating i'm going to further ignite the fire of rage within him." The truth is, the ultimate thing you can do to anyone who pisses you off ever, is love them. Good ol' fashioned compassion, acceptance and forgiveness. There is some seriously uber lame shit though that some people have done in this game which I find it hard to get my head around. It all comes down to bordom. They just don't know what they love otherwise they'd be focused doing that rather then being num nuts. I watch sold go for the flag without engaging any enemies. He seems to be in a zone like what michael jordan talks about. He's one with the flag. Not too concerned with the frag. I lookup to soldier because of his dedication to the greater goal of the team. onya Soldier :) And Toules is a legend because he shares his enthusiasm and knowledge for the game, even though people think he has no life, and even though the energy he puts into a column is just a fraction of energy anyone who reading this page has put into tf. So get over the got no life stuff cause you're talking to a mirror :)
Mercury @ 2004-06-19 18:32:03 Id like to point my attention to KLION, that when we played our last game and I frag'd someone he would yell, FFS STOP STEALING probably after he shot 3 rockets and 7 buckshots but apparent MAX doesnt d00l enough for star FRAG status. ps. More stats should be give (will be if i ever finish da mod), around other things like flag stuff.
solj @ 2004-06-19 19:52:01 there was an a stat in q3f which showed how many times u saved the flag (how many times u killed a flagrunner). I recommend implementing that! As well as some sort of damage counter, even though frags dont count, i believe damage dealt is a better indication of a persons skill also make it so that if they tk, their damage counter decreases! that will make them think twice about tk'n a teammate, could even promote better teamplay but the point is, who knows. By implementing a stat that shows flagsaves, u may have degraded the game to a level where attackers go to the full extent of chasing someone so they can be "leet flagsavers" = outside gayness
solj @ 2004-06-19 19:52:23 -an
@ 2004-06-20 01:13:46 when it all comes down to it the only stats you need are the team scores
Hav @ 2004-06-20 01:29:23 Fragstealing with clay can be beneficial to the "defense".
f@e @ 2004-06-20 18:21:32 i think u mean analysis fri o_O
DTrain @ 2004-06-20 21:41:14 im not l33t enough to steal, by the time i have pressed my shotty key and then actually aimed and shot, the enemy is always dead - send dt your leet scripts i say! so he can be a better fraghunter!
Snoozer @ 2004-06-20 23:23:13 Sepz is gay -zzz
tones @ 2004-06-23 10:41:59 having designated killers is different to frag hunting imo. especially when theyre trying to pull defenders away from where they should be etc either by killing them or making them chase u away from the flag long enough to get a few team mates thru with h/a. but on defence its gay, especially when somone moves out of position to go get more frags (which usually leads to easy caps for the other team). k:d ratio arguably a better stat than over all frags but even then can be affected by resup whores. alot of the time watching demos youll see players that got "only" 80/60.. being twice as effective as some that got tonns. not saying its always the case, but yer... reality is most impact on game != top fragger alot of the time.

[PnP]Slappa
[PnP]Donaldo
[PnP]rec
[PnP]Asmo
[PnP]Reactor
[PnP]Haze
[PnP]Punker
[PnP]Fruit
[PnP]Ace
[PnP]Goten
[PnP]Novate
[PnP]Valtiel
[PnP]Nevermind

[PnP]ABC
[PnP]Adix
[PnP]Arc
[PnP]Azrael
[PnP]BabyXeon
[PnP]Bangers
[PnP]Bern
[PnP]Berserker
[PnP]Big D
[PnP]bliP
[PnP]Buckwheat
[PnP]Buttslut
[PnP]Cann
[PnP]Chino
[PnP]Coolmody
[PnP]Covert
[PnP]Cyberdemon
[PnP]DigitalJedi
[PnP]EMHAITCH
[PnP]eWAt
[PnP]Excess
[PnP]Fat Boy
[PnP]Fluffle Bunny
[PnP]Fuzzy
[PnP]Gak Man
[PnP]Gascar
[PnP]GiJoe
[PnP]Grim Reaper
[PnP]Haggas
[PnP]Helmet
[PnP]hj
[PnP]Ishy
[PnP]Jimmy
[PnP]jin
[PnP]Kariya
[PnP]Kinnear
[PnP]Kizmet
[PnP]Kodiak
[PnP]Kriso
[PnP]Leviath
[PnP]MaC
[PnP]MadMike
[PnP]Mailman
[PnP]marks
[PnP]Marsh
[PnP]Meks
[PnP]Messiah
[PnP]Minbari
[PnP]Mr Poo
[PnP]Nem
[PnP]oops
[PnP]Pandan
[PnP]PhantomLord
[PnP]Phatmike
[PnP]Raptor
[PnP]Raver
[PnP]Renwald
[PnP]Rocco
[PnP]Sandz
[PnP]Scarecrow
[PnP]Schuey
[PnP]Seano
[PnP]Shadow
[PnP]shenkz
[PnP]Shivan
[PnP]SilverFox
[PnP]Sinister
[PnP]SLA_YER
[PnP]Sold
[PnP]Souless
[PnP]Teddy
[PnP]The Governor
[PnP]Tigs
[PnP]tod
[PnP]Tom
[PnP]Tommyboy
[PnP]Toules
[PnP]Trashpak
[PnP]twisted
[PnP]Venture
[PnP]Venus
[PnP]Vinnie
[PnP]Vlad
[PnP]Xzi
[PnP]Zinya
[PnP]Zoom
[PnP]zut

[PnP]GAK Man	Design / Backend
[PnP]Adix	Backend
[PnP]Kariya	Backend
[PnP]Covert	Backend
[PnP]Slappa	Backend
[PnP]Zoom	Backend
[PnP]Messiah	Design
[PnP] Since Oct-1997

Add Comment
Nickname: Comment: The following question is for spam control: Are you Human?

[PnP] win vs fv		17-Mar
cp_well : 5 : 0 [Comment]i solid effort by our guys

[PnP] win vs [-]		11-Feb
cp_dustbowl : 1 : 0 ctf_well : 2 : 2 [Comment]